Episode 44: Storm Preparation & Response in UVM w/ Drew Seidel

Episode 44: Storm Preparation & Response in Vegetation Management w/ Drew Seidel

Welcome to the 44th Episode of Trees & Lines: Fresh Perspectives on Utility Vegetation Management

Trees and Lines Podcast – Episode 44

Join Iapetus Infrastructure Services (IIS) COO Tejpal Singh and Principal Advisor Dr. Phil Charlton for a conversation with Drew Seidel, Vice President of Distribution for Southwestern Electric Power Company (SWEPCO), an American Electric Power (AEP) company.

Episode 44 Transcript

Philip Charlton: Welcome to today’s episode of the Trees and Lines podcast. Our guest today is Drew Seidel, the VP of Distribution for AEP SWEPCO. We will be discussing the lessons he has learned from his experiences with storms, their platform for tracking field resources, and his experiences leading a team of over 600 people. Please enjoy the listen. Have a listen and enjoy.

Tej Singh: Welcome to another episode of Trees and Lines. We’re thrilled to have Drew Seidel, the Vice President of the Electric Distribution System for AEP SWEPCO, joining us today. Thank you for being here, Drew.

Drew Seidel: I am excited to be with you all.

Philip Charlton: Welcome, Drew.

Tej Singh: I’m excited as well because, like me, you’re in Texas. I don’t know, Phil, have we had anybody from Texas on this podcast?

Philip Charlton: I believe we have, Co-op Pedernales.

Tej Singh: We have Pedernales; that’s right. Drew, I think you mentioned when we were offline that you’re in Shreveport today.

Drew Seidel: Yes. We’re headquartered in Shreveport, Louisiana. AEP is headquartered in Columbus, Ohio, but is totally separate. We have customers in East Texas and Louisiana here, and we are going further north up in Arkansas as well.

Tej Singh: Drew, do you want to just give us, before we explore some of the fun stuff that you’ve been up to, maybe a brief little background about you and how you got to the position that you’re in? I know you’ve worked at various plants, and you’ve got a big role today, so maybe a little background on you.

Drew Seidel: Absolutely. I’ve been in the electric utility industry for over 30 years. I started out in generation working in both gas and coal-fired plants for almost 25 years. I moved over to distribution about five or six years ago. I was told that they let me out of the fence.

Tej Singh: Nice. I like that.

Drew Seidel: But I did work in everything, from engineering through supervision to a lot of operations, and then I managed both gas and coal-fired plants. Today, I have an opportunity to take over the distribution system for our 550,000 customers here at SWEPCO.

Philip Charlton: Those of us up north, we think of your area as having a lot of hurricanes and storms, a big part of your job, I assume?

Drew Seidel: Absolutely. I would say we have definitely seen an increase in storm activity. I think a lot of people can claim that. But a lot of the story goes back just a few years to Hurricane Laura, when it moved through our area. Now we weren’t at the epicenter of it, but we certainly saw the effects and got a lot of damage. Then we had Hurricane Delta right behind that, and then we had a winter storm that snowmageddon, which a lot of people will remember. Then recently, back this past summer, we had probably the worst, largest number of customers we’ve ever had out at SWEPCO. It seems like we haven’t caught a break in the last several years when it comes to large, major storms.

Philip Charlton: How many inches of snow is snowmageddon in Louisiana?

Drew Seidel: We had 12 inches of snow.

Philip Charlton: Okay. That counts.

Drew Seidel: That, and it was down to zero for several days there. It was a week, and we’re not used to that.

Tej Singh: I’m Canadian, so that when we moved down here and my family was down here and we moved end of 2019, caught that whole freeze in 2020, my wife was like, I thought it doesn’t get this cold in Texas. I’m like, well, I guess we’re dealing with two extreme weather patterns now in Texas, which I think it puts a unique amount of pressure on the on the grid.

Drew Seidel: For sure.

Tej Singh: Which actually leads me to want to explore with you a little this new legislation or proposed legislation, House Bill 2555. Are you familiar with this grid resiliency piece of legislation requiring utilities to put formal resiliency plans together?

Drew Seidel: In each of our states, we are seeing similar types of requests. In fact, we have plans to file some resilience-type plans in Texas, and we’ll do something similar in Louisiana. We have done similar things in Arkansas already. It’s currently top of mind for us. We started that back about 2000, of all things, through here at SWEPCO, and it really followed a major ice event that occurred in our northern Fayetteville area, Arkansas, where we lost pretty much every customer in the state of Arkansas. The response was, well, we need bigger poles, cross arms, and conductors, and we started up there, and we started migrating that across our system with hurricanes and stuff as well. We definitely are building to a different standard today, but it takes a long time to rebuild your whole grid, and we really started in that northern area, which is more susceptible to ice. Now, we’re starting to see these 100-mile-an-hour straight-line winds come through. We’ve got lots of really tall trees—100, 200-foot-tall pine trees. and when they come down, they take the world with them.

Philip Charlton: Everything in their way.

Drew Seidel: Right.

Philip Charlton: As a VP of Distribution, what’s the big challenge of managing those storms?

Drew Seidel: In most of those storms, it really was just a large number of resources. I’ll mention a storm that happened back in June of this past year where we lost half of our customers in Texas and Louisiana. It went right down I-20 in the middle of the night and just devastated us. Our meteorologists said this is going to form in Lawton, Oklahoma, and it’s going to weaken throughout the evening. Well, it didn’t do that, and we were the epicenter of it. So when we bring in over 4,000 resources, just knowing where everybody is so that we can really optimize that response, that’s our biggest challenge. We’ve always done it by paper in the past, and it seemed like we were always a day behind or a couple of days behind. So really trying to get more real-time information about where folks are, and with real-time damage assessment coming in, it was a game changer for us.

Philip Charlton: You’ve been building a platform to help manage that.

Drew Seidel: We started this concept several years ago. It’s really in everything that we do. But a big piece of it really was around storm assessment and actually having a tool that would give us capability in the field. As we bring in a lot of assessors, we bring in a lot of other tree resources and vegetation resources for them to have access to our maps and our system and for us to be able to communicate with them. We partnered with a company called ARCOS, and they really have been working on this field mobility piece. That’s definitely a piece for us, and we’ll do some stuff around construction as well. But assessment was the first thing that we rolled out, and it really gave us a lot of insights that we didn’t have before when we started to see some real-time communication and information capabilities out in the field that we didn’t have before. A lot of times in storm response, I can think back to Hurricane Laura in particular. We lost pretty much every customer we had in our southern part, everything south of Shreveport. It was very difficult. Everything’s on paper. We didn’t know where people were. We thought we did. Of course, you always think you know where they’re supposed to be, yet we find out days later that that’s not where they are. Just having more capabilities at your fingertips has been a game-changer nonetheless.

Philip Charlton: Does the system help you not only keep track of where they are, but does it do other things to help manage? Think of tree crews come in. How do you manage hotels and communications and all those things?

Drew Seidel: Yes, there’s a resource piece to it. If you’ve been in mutual assistance, then you have sent in your rosters and all that stuff. Usually it’s all on paper or Excel; you’re trying to combine all that stuff, and so we’re able to load all that information in this resource manager program; we’re able to have contact information; we’re able to send messages and say, here’s your hotel; here’s where you’re going to go; here’s the location where meals are going to be served. And it’s very helpful from that standpoint. And then you can start to graphically see on a map where people are. If they are actually logged in, we can start to see where they truly are, and it helps them be able to connect with the resources we’re trying to connect them with.

If you’re a circuit coordinator, you can start to automatically see who’s assigned to you and get ahold of them more quickly. We like to tie those tree resources to a specific circuit, with a specific circuit coordinator that also has line resources, so that they could be out ahead and we’ve got the assessors ahead of them. They can all see the same information coming in real time before it’s a piece of paper coming in and going to the office, and then engineers who can draw on the jobs will send it over. To get the material staged for the next day, they send them out. The game changer here really was a picture. You could do all that work. A lot of times, they just needed a picture, and they knew exactly what they needed to take care of the problem.

Philip Charlton: A picture instead of sheet after sheet of data.

Drew Seidel: I think back to Hurricane Laura and so much of that assessment we did and then subsequent drawing up of jobs, a lot of it really we weren’t able to use because it wasn’t accurate. They couldn’t figure out where it was supposed to be. I mean, a lot of times, our guys are really good at what they do, and we just give them the tools they need to get at it and make a difference.

Tej Singh: What percentage of your grid do you think still needs, let’s just say, for lack of a better word, to be overhauled, updated, or tightened up? Where do you guys think you are in that process?

Drew Seidel: From a grid resilience standpoint, I don’t have a good number, but it’s way less than 50%.

Tej Singh: That’s pretty good.

Drew Seidel: Like I said, we’ve done it in certain areas; we’ve changed a lot of poles, but the problem is going from one end of the station to the end and then doing laterals as well. I think when you do the hard circuit, you start to get a lot of that structure in the reconductor. But it’s a many-year process.

Philip Charlton: And presumably not inexpensive.

Drew Seidel: No. But I think you also have to weigh the fact that storms are really expensive. We can have restoration happen a lot faster and probably at a much reduced cost if we’re not replacing thousands of poles; if we’re just replacing cross arms and conductors, we can get it up faster. That’s always designed to fail today under the new standards.

Tej Singh: Vegetation management, construction, maintenance—all these are different vertical streams under your purview, correct?

Drew Seidel: Yes.

Tej Singh: Talk to us a little bit about your vegetation management approach and strategy. Where is that program in its evolution?

Drew Seidel: What’s interesting is that in each one of our states, we have a different approach, and a lot of it has to do with the funding in that state. We are working towards getting on to a four- or six-year cycle in each of our states, certainly further along in Texas than we are in our other two jurisdictions. What we found is that, probably about five years ago, we used to bid out a lot of circuits, and we saw prices double and triple almost overnight. They couldn’t get climbers, so that was really an opportunity for us to change our process and our specs. We used to be ground to sky, and we just couldn’t get climbers to do that portion of it.

We went to a lot more mechanized equipment, and so now we evaluate our system and try to map it out. What can be mechanized using drafts or aerial saws? What were the bucketing manuals, and what section is nothing at all? We’ve worked with Accenture to help us build models. What’s the CMI improvement? We’re able to move in those directions. That’s the path we’re on. I think we know how to get there; it’s just not inexpensive. We’re always balancing reliability and cost. We’re chipping away at it. I guess you could say.

Philip Charlton: I was just curious if you’ve started it off right away with tree management and tree risk assessment programs. Are any of those parts of your program now?

Drew Seidel: I think when we look at trees outside the right-of-way, we’re always looking for any compromised trees we think are dead. We definitely want to remove those. I think an important piece of our strategy is really just trying to widen right-of-ways wherever we can, wherever it makes sense. If we’re running a 30-foot race with 15 on each side, can we get to 50? When you get a 200-foot tree, it gives you a lot of cushion that you don’t have today, and then likely we’ll never have to come back and trim it again, or it’s just probably just mowing in that area.

A lot of our challenges are that the first time through when we haven’t trimmed it, it’s just really expensive, and then once you get on the maintenance piece. We never want to have to go back on a circuit once we’ve reclaimed it and gotten it under control. We want to make sure we continue to maintain that. Our herbicide program is, I would say, at the core of our strategy, so we get it trimmed, and we want to maintain it like a two- to three-year spray cycle. We’re dropping thousands of miles, it seems, each year on the amount of spray, and it’s making a difference.

Philip Charlton: Once you invest in clearing, you want to keep it.

Drew Seidel: Absolutely. it’s expensive.

Tej Singh: What percentage of the overall veg is your PUC ask every year or every three years? If the entire scope under you is—I’m just taking a round number—$100 million, how much is the veg portion as a percentage of the total number?

Drew Seidel: Total O&M is 75%. It’s a large number.

Tej Singh: You have the fun part of the business where you get to deal with the customer side of things as well, I’m guessing.

Drew Seidel: Absolutely. That is the fun part, for sure.

Tej Singh: Given your environment and the footprint that you guys have getting battered by storms, what is the infrastructure that you guys have put together in terms of being able to communicate with your customers and really managing that outage turnaround time? How are you guys evolving on that side of the space?

Drew Seidel: That has actually been an important strategy for us. We talk about ETR; it’s your estimated time of restoration. Normally, we’re talking to customers either because their power’s out or their bill’s high. When someone’s out of power on a blue sky, we know what the average time to restore is, and we’re going to send them a global ETR and tell them we’re going to be back in three or four hours, depending upon where they’re at it. We also want to make sure we follow up. But in a storm, it’s different, and we always try to get an event ETR out. We want to make sure we try to say, when are we going to get 95% of our customers back? We need to get that out quickly.

A lot of times, it used to be that we’d tried to be very accurate, and we didn’t want to miss that number. We learned that we need to get something out fast, and if we just have to use the information we have at the time, we’ll just update if there’s better information. That’s our goal. Then we want to follow up as quickly as we can behind that with a circuit level, so we need to get more granular. That really comes from our ability, like we talked about implementing field mobility and the more information we have coming in. We get that information from our circuit coordinators when they’re out there. When they’ve looked at it and they know what resources they have, they’re able to commit to us when they’re going to have that back, and we are able to start sending out those circuit-level ETRs very quickly and be pretty accurate about those.

The next piece to that is really that when we’re actually working on that circuit, we want to let them know that, hey, we call it a field ETR, and hey, we think you’re going to be back today. That’s the general approach. It’s not just customers that are interested. On those large-scale events, our cities want to know. The state wants to know. We’re also having to give them information, and they want more graphical maps and stuff. It depends on who you’re talking to and who needs what. We’re always trying to meet everyone’s needs.

Tej Singh: Of course.

Philip Charlton: It’s interesting that you say it doesn’t necessarily have to be accurate at first. Just get it out there and keep getting it out there, and I assume you refine it over time.

Drew Seidel: We have a good idea. Our managers, supervisors, and linemen—they’ve been doing this for a long time. They fought a lot of storms all over the US, not just here. Do you know what resources you’ve got coming in and when they’re going to be here? Then we start to get a pretty good idea.

Tej Singh: How much of the parent company, AEP, and how much of their resources, impact, and influence do you draw on as you’re building out strategies or reacting to events, or are you much more isolated as an entity?

Drew Seidel: It’s very helpful to be part of a large company like American Electric Power. We have a group of specific support system storms that handle all the mutual assistance and all the contracts. We just let them know what we need from a resource standpoint, and then they go do that for us. They’re also able to manage a lot of aspects of business continuity for us. There’s always a lot of people who want to know a lot of information, and so they’re able to run those traps for us, so we’re able to really focus on actually just serving our customers and trying to get the power back on. It really helps. The other thing is that we bring in our own internal resources from our other operating companies because they’ve got the same systems. It’s easy to communicate with them. There are definitely advantages to doing that.

Tej Singh: How many people are on your team? How many people do you have in your direct reporting structure?

Drew Seidel: Roughly 600. That’s everything from engineers to linemen, some administration, so the whole gamut.

Tej Singh: Does that include internal as well as partner resources?

Drew Seidel: That’s just internal resources.

Tej Singh: That’s a big footprint. I’m sure you’re busy.

Drew Seidel: Well, I’ve got a great team. That’s the beauty of it.

Tej Singh: Yeah. No, very cool.

Drew Seidel: We’re split up into five different districts, and then engineering does its thing. We’re one of the smaller operating companies. You have several that are much larger. AEP Texas, Ohio—they’re a big company, bigger than us.

Tej Singh: What did you find as the transition from generation to distribution? What were some of the things that surprised you in terms of challenges and just your leadership?

Drew Seidel: The interesting thing for me is that in generation, we were really good at what I call asset management or work management. We just had years and years and years of developing processes and stuff. At the same time, a lot of technologies were being deployed, which you could do on a smaller scale. When I came over here, I saw that a lot of that same stuff that we were doing over there years before has been migrating over to this space, and it’s been exciting to see that the technology has enabled that. It was easier to do in a small plant, but when you’re out in the field all the time, it’s just trying to manage our work. It’s the same kind of thing at the end of the day—what you’re trying to get accomplished. But it’s just harder because you don’t have everybody at your fingertips anymore. You can’t walk down the hall. You can’t walk out of the plant.

Philip Charlton: I don’t remember what the first storm was you referred to, but then Hurricane Laura, and I imagine you learn lessons each time. What’s the big aha moment from your last hurricane?

Drew Seidel: They build on each other. I’ll just say in Laura, really, it was just trying to get a handle on our resources, getting them in efficiently, getting them out. Delta, which followed that, luckily we’d have many effects; we were able to actually put them into use and see that happening. But this last storm was really an opportunity to actually use this field mobility tool and get a feel for it. What we started to see was that there are a lot of other efficiencies here that you don’t even think about. There’s things as simple as when you can start to see which customers have already taken power on a map, and if you’re having to deal with it, you can say, I’ve already been there, they should have power, and then we can clear that ticket instead of having to send all these resources back out. Is that customer’s light back on? We didn’t know. Just having information at your fingertips really is a game changer; it makes a big difference. But getting it to the field was the difference at the end of the day, not me having it necessarily. I really like to see where my resources are from an incident commander standpoint. It made a big difference, for sure. I can make better decisions and feel more comfortable when we’re making commitments to have customers back, but I need more tools in the field.

Tej Singh: It sounds like you guys are going through a bit of a transition digitally, embracing technologies across the portfolio. Where are you in that life cycle? Do you feel like you’re halfway there? Is it just a constant, hey, we got better tools, we’re figuring this out, and we’re using GIS data? What is the relationship with technology and business right now?

Drew Seidel: This is a big step for us right here in this field of mobility, and it affects a lot of different things. One is just how normal work happens. A lot of times, when we’ve got to do work, there’s a lot of extra effort, a lot of extra processing, just to get everything to match up. We call it redlining processes. If you can do all that in real time, it makes a difference. But we’re seeing it on the grid as well; whether we’re in the smart grid aspects, DACR distributed is able to reconfigure circuits automatically. There’s so much technology that’s really at our fingertips today.

Of course, AMI is a big one as well, just being able to communicate information to our customers that maybe we haven’t been able to or have more information about our customers. Do we have certain areas of the grid where we have more EV penetration? Are we concerned that we might be overloading a circuit? It’s just the right time, I guess. We need all these tools because things are changing so fast, and of course, distributed generation is coming in the future, and that’s a whole different aspect as well.

Philip Charlton: I’m interested in 600 reports, so obviously leadership’s one of your skills. Our audience may be at different points in their careers, but a lot of them are looking forward. Have you got any leadership lessons or advice for the next generation coming in?

Drew Seidel: Leadership is about influence. I think you’ve got to find your style and embrace that. We’ve been on this journey around human performance, and just really understanding people makes a big difference. Being interested and not being surprised. A lot of times, bad things might happen. What would your response be? I think you’re just trying to get to the mindset that my role is more of a coach and a leader, and I’ll let them be successful.

What do I need to equip them to be successful in what they’re trying to do because they’re the ones serving the customer? We talk about the idea of a black line and a blue line. The blue line is what really happens out in the field from day to day. The black line is what I think’s happening, and they’re never the same. No job ever gets completed as it’s claimed.

People always have to adapt, and at the same time, we want them to adapt. But we also want to make sure they have the capability, so if something goes wrong, they’re still okay. But a lot of them say, what does it mean to be a learning organization? How can we learn together? You only know about what’s happening if people trust you. If you want to have a reporting culture and know what’s really happening, you have to go and see, and they have to trust you to tell you what’s happening, and then you have to listen. That’s been the transformation throughout my career: when I joined, when I got into this business for 30 years, that’s not how it worked.

Tej Singh: Is your career at SWEPCO the way you’ve been able to move doing plants and then certainly up in your career? Is that happening throughout the organization on various scales? Do people have the mobility to try different things and move to different departments?

Drew Seidel: Definitely, the opportunity is there. I think that as leaders, we need to look for those opportunities for people. A lot of times, they don’t realize that they are there. It’s really a lot about leadership trying to help them see what they’re capable of and may not even know that they’re capable of. But it’s got to be intentional, or it makes a difference if it’s intentional. We try to do a good job of that. I would say that it’s something that we always have to try to work towards.

Tej Singh: Look around the US, and there’s austerity measures across the utilities, across all different types of sectors. There is a tightening of everyone’s belt with high inflation, and the cost of everything and doing everything is just so much higher today. How have you been dealing with that? How have you guys navigated that? Has that really changed the course of your business and objectives, or have you been able to play that juggling act a little bit?

Drew Seidel: It’s a real impact. I think most people are feeling that as well. Things are just very expensive, like you said, so you can’t get as much work done. A lot of it’s just making sure we really communicate well with the customer and are responsive. We’re still going to do the same things. We still have to keep the lights on. We still have to provide service. Unfortunately, maybe we can’t do as many complete circuit reconductoring jobs as we’d like to. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t focus on repeat outages. We could still reduce the outages that customers see. We just have to think about it differently. Maybe it’ll look different in a couple of years from now what we focus on if we have a huge influx of capital. We know what to do, so we have to be more creative. But more than anything, customers just want to know what’s going on, so just communicate with them proactively about what’s happening.

Tej Singh: It sounds like you guys are doing a fantastic job. Obviously, with the variables that you have to deal with, there’s a lot of unpredictability with storms and events, but it sounds like you guys are on the right track doing some pretty great things, and it’s great to hear. I didn’t realize that the depth chart for you guys was this big within your department. It’s a big group.

Drew Seidel: Thank you. Let me tell you that I love what I do and flex it. The big change for me in this job is that you get to be close to the customer. It was hard sometimes when you’re in the plant, and so I really enjoy that engagement and making a difference..

Tej Singh: In working with the distribution network and dealing with customers, a lot of your employees will have to have some level of bedside manners. They can’t just be technically competent; they have to have some people’s skills. Sometimes the jobs that you’re trying to fill, the people that have those technical qualifications, don’t necessarily match their personalities. Is that something that you’d specifically say? No, we have to find the people that have those skills, or we’ll take the technical people and we’ll introduce training and guide them in terms of how they engage the customer?

Drew Seidel: I think we’re fortunate here that great customer service has always been something that’s part of our culture at SWEPCO. I think it helps, but we actually have to train our folks. There’s great training we go through so that everybody can be an advocate for the customer, not just our customer service folks. We have a lot of contractor utility foresters that are out there knocking on doors. They represent us, the business partners that are out there doing work. They don’t see a business partner; they see SWEPCO at the end of the day. We’re all on the same team, whether we like it or not.

Philip Charlton: Actually, those door knockers are probably meeting more of your customers than anybody else in the company right now. They probably talk to a lot of people.

Drew Seidel: Absolutely.

Tej Singh: Has resourcing been a bit of a challenge in terms of some of your locales? I think you said Shreveport; you’ve got Tyler and the Greater Tyler, Texas area, and then also Arkansas. In terms of getting folks into those regions to deliver work, has that been an issue?

Drew Seidel: We were seeing an issue, particularly on the line worker side. There was definitely a shortage. You might have heard about California, and they’re pulling veg resources, too. With the slowdown we’re seeing, we’ve had to back off our number of business partners because of capital constraints and stuff like that. Not so much right now, but as we transform the grid, the spinning is going to happen in distribution. It’s going to ramp back up, and it’s going to be higher than it ever was. I think labor strategy is a really important part of our strategy for all of EAP. What’s that going to look like? We better be figuring it out now instead of waiting a couple of years down the road.

Tej Singh: We run a portfolio of companies and we play in the utility space, and one of the biggest challenges we’ve identified for the utilities across the board is the fact that the pipeline of people available to perform all these services is very thin, very regionally concentrated and there’s such a disparity as you move across the country in terms of pay that you see this migration of resources too, predominantly the coasts so that we use the middle of the country talent constrained. It’s been very interesting to see and you don’t necessarily see people rushing into the space, rushing into the industry. When you start looking at it and you start mapping out over time, you see a real problem, a real crunch coming. The fact that you guys understand that, are thinking about it, planning for it is great because you’re all going to need to because it’s a real problem.

Drew Seidel: Absolutely. We saw that we had to build those resources ourselves.

Tej Singh: You guys just said we’re going to solve this with our own teams. It’s a slower but more expensive strategy, but at least that’s a way to get it done.

Drew, thank you so much. I could do this for hours with you. We have so much to talk about, but this was wonderful. Thanks so much for taking some time, giving us a little peek into your world, and getting to know you as a trooper.

Drew Seidel: Hey, I enjoyed this. This is fantastic. Thank you.

Tej Singh: That’s awesome. We’ll have to do a part two and think of some of the things that we can chat about.

Drew Seidel: That’ll be fun.

Philip Charlton: I think you exhibited one of the leadership qualities you need. You said you love what you do, and boy, that’s a key.

Tej Singh: That is a key. Well done.

Philip Charlton: It came through, by the way.

Drew Seidel: Awesome. Thanks for doing this, too. I appreciate the opportunity.

Philip Charlton: Appreciate it, Drew. It was nice meeting you.

Drew Seidel: Likewise.

Tej Singh: That’s it for this episode of Trees and Lines, brought to you by Iapetus Holdings. If you like the show, please give us a five-star rating on Apple or Spotify. If you have any questions or comments on any of our episodes or ideas for topics or guests, we’d love to hear from you. Please contact us at We’ll chat with you soon.

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